Comparison of non-Uber Walls

[ProjectTitan313]

Backstory: I got bored one day, with enough soda to last through one hell of a storm. As opposed to doing something constructive or self-improving, I played around with a damage calculator like a total fucking pokenerd. I figured "well, maybe someone will have some use or interest in this".

Physical Walls

Attacker used was maximum, +Atk Base 130, using a STAB+Life Orb boosted move with 100 Base Power (basically, max Atk Adamant Life Orb Machamp using DynamicPunch/Cross Chop). Didn't want some pansy attacker.
The following does not include Stealth Rock, Active Weather or field conditions, Leftovers, weaknesses/resistances/immunities. Leftovers will restore 1/16th health per turn (-6.25% from Min/Max) and active Poison Heal will restore 2/16 (-12.5% from Min/Max).
Format:
Rank, Pokemon, (Base HP/Base Defense); min-max% of health lost.

1. Eviolite Rhydon (105/120); 24.15-28.50%
2. Eviolite Lairon (60/160); 27.77-32.71%
3. Regirock (80/200); 28.02-32.96%
4. Steelix (75/200); 28.81-33.89%
5. Rhyperior (115/130); 32.48-38.24%
6. Slaking (150/100); 33.33-39.28%
7. Cresselia (120/120); 33.33-39.41%
8. Eviolite Dusclops (40/130); 33.09-39.43%
9. Hippowdon (108/118); 35.71-42.14%
10. Tangrowth (100/125); 35.64-42.32%
11. Alomomola (165/80); 36.51-42.88%
12. Cobalion (91/129); 36.52-43.00%
13. Shuckle (20/230); 36.88-43.44%
14. Mandibuzz (110/105); 38.20-45.28%
15. Metagross (80/130); 38.73-45.6%
16. Ferrothorn (74/131); 39.48-46.87%
17. Skarmory/Torkoal (65/140); 39.82-47.00%
18. Cofagrigus (58/145); 40.31-47.81%
19. Mew (100/100); 41.58-49.00%
20. Dusknoir (45/135); 45.91-54.42%
21. Vaporeon (130/65); 49.46-58.32%

-Note a few other well known physical walls, such as Slowbro and Gliscor were omitted. That is simply due to time constraint. I can see where they rank if people are bored enough. Also excluded were Intimidate users (Salamence, Arcanine, Gyarados, Stoutland, Hitmontop), they may be added if requested :3
-Personally, I was stunned to see Mandibuzz (commonly used as a special wall/toxic stall) as high as she is, especially topping Metagross (albeit, barely) and saddened by Dusknoir's low rating, though its pitiful HP has always been his greatest flaw.
-It should be noted however that as Resistance/Weakness were ignored, Rhyperior's Solid Rock was not factored in. I believe that running these all against the same attack and assuming all are hit Super Effectively, Rhyperior could definitely rise a bit.
-Also note that a high ranking does not means high durability. Rhydon, Lairon, Regirock, Steelix, and Rhyperior have nothing but Rest (and Leftovers for non-Eviolite users, Regirock also has Drain Punch), while Cresselia has a shaky Moonlight that could certainly be useful in Sun but is otherwise dampened by a Rain and Sandstorm dominated metagame.
-Hippowdon, Slaking, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Alomomola, and Vaporeon are the only ones on the list with a good recovery move (Slack Off, Roost, and Wish respectively), while Tangrowth has Morning Sun, Giga Drain, and Leech Seed to compensate. Ferrothorn also has Leech Seed to recover HP. Dusclops and Dusknoir have Pain Split.
-Slaking is the hardest hitting wall listed, with Shuckle in dead last. In terms of Sp. Atk, Vaporeon and Tangrowth tie at base 110, with Shuckle in dead last.
-Cobalion sits at an impressive 108 Speed, making it the fastest wall. It also has access to Taunt, easily outrunning defensive Jirachi, Celebi, and Gliscor with no investment. The only other walls here with Taunt are Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Dusclops, and Dusknoir.
-Interestingly, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn are the only ones listed that resist Water, while Vaporeon is immune.
-The majority of the pokes listed are Immune to Sandstorm damage. Only Cresselia, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Vaporeon, Slaking, and Cofagrigus are affected (Mandibuzz has Overcoat).
-Nobody seriously uses Slaking as a physical wall. But honestly, it certainly has potential. You'd have to use the Cofagrigus+Pursuit Slaking gimmick to get any real results though.

Special Walls

Attacker used was maximum, +Sp. Atk Base 130 using a STAB+Life Orb boosted move with 100 Base Power (Basically, max Sp. Atk Modest Life Orb Heatran using Heat Wave in a single battle).
Didn't want some pansy attacker.
The following does not include Stealth Rock, Active Weather or field conditions, Leftovers, weaknesses/resistances/immunities. Leftovers will restore 1/16th health per turn (-6.25% from Min/Max) and active Poison Heal will restore 2/16 (-12.5% from Min/Max).
Format:
Rank, Pokemon, (Base HP/Base Sp. Defense); min-max% of health lost.

1. Eviolite Chansey (250/105); 15.77-18.47%
2. Blissey (255/135); 20.01-24.79%
3. Regice (80/200); 28.02-32.97%
4. Sand Boosted Tyranitar (100/100); 28.22-32.92%
5. Snorlax (160/110); 30.34-35.50%
6. Cresselia (120/130); 31.98-37.39%
7. Eviolite Dusclops (40/130); 33.80-39.44%
8. Virizion (91/129); 36.79%-43.01%
9. Shuckle (20/230); 36.89%-43.44%
10. Lapras/Vaporeon (130/95); 37.72-44.18%
11. Suicune (100/115); 37.87-44.55%
12. Latias (90/130); 39.01-45.60%
13. Probopass (60/150); 39.20-46.30%
14. Mantine (65/140); 39.82-47.01%
15. Stunfisk (109/99); 40.05-47.16%
16. Jellicent (100/105); 40.35-47.52%
17. Mandibuzz (110/95); 41.27-48.35%
18. Mew (100/100); 41.58-49.01%
19. Ferrothorn (74/116) 42.9-50.57%
20. Claydol (60/120) 45.68-54.01%

-A few walls may have been overlooked or omitted. I tried to get about 20 as best I could.
-Personally, Suicune surpassing Latias seems wrong to me... but 2-3 repeats on the damage calc says I'm wrong.
-Probopass and Shuckle were not granted a Sp. Def boost from Sandstorm; Tyranitar however was. This is the only case of an Ability being applied.
-Note that a high ranking does not mean high durability. Chansey and Blissey have Softboiled and/or Wish, Cresselia has a shaky Moonlight, Latias has Recover/Wish/Roost, Vaporeon has Wish, while Mandibuzz has Roost.
-The Base 100/100/100 group is represented by Mew; some have recovery (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi) while some don't (Victini, Manaphy).
-Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, while Virizion has Giga Drain for some extra HP, while the majority of the others have only Rest or Pain Split.
-Highest offensive stats are Tyranitar (134) for Atk, and a tie between Latias and Vaporeon (110) for Sp. Atk. Shuckle is the bottom of both barrels.
-Highest Speed goes to Latias (110) followed by Virizion (108). Shuckle is the slowest (5).
-Interestingly, only 3 listed Pokemon have access to Taunt: Tyranitar, Dusclops, and Mandibuzz (and Mew).
-Only Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Probopass resist Dragon.

Mixed Walls

Now, mixed walling is basically some really complicated shit. If that makes any sense.
To the best of my ability, I'll try to use the most balanced walls I can find, plus the base 100/100/100 group as the control group.
In order to keep things as balanced as possible from a statistical standpoint, this applet will be used for the EV Spreads, with bias set to an equal 50/50 for Special and Physical attacks. Then, all the pokes listed will have that EV spread tested against the attackers used in the two above listings. I'll list the min/max taken from physical attack and special attack side by side, maybe an average min/max of the two, something like that.
Note: For some odd reason, the applet always seems to give Sp. Def the priority at 50/50 bias. Since manually balancing defenses via Stat Calc would be... daunting, the majority of the pokes have a small Sp. Def bias :/
See the next post for additional info, such as how I obtained the overall average damage.

1. Eviolite Chansey (250/5/105): 32.47-38.29%
2. Cresselia (120/120/130): 37.38-44.03%
3. Sand Boosted Tyranitar (100/110/100): 38.78-45.67%
4. Registeel (80/150/150): 39.43-46.70%
5. Shuckle (20/230/230): 40.98-48.15%
6. Snorlax (160/65/110): 41.31-48.76%
7. Umbreon (95/110/130): 43.53-51.14%
8. Bastiodon (60/168/138): 43.67-52.23%
9. Gyarados* (95/78/100): 44.54-52.39%
10. Probopass (60/145/150): 44.54-52.39%
11. Eviolite Rhydon (105/120/45): 45.77-53.86%
12. Lapras (130/80/95): 45.90-53.99%
13. Mandibuzz (110/105/95): 46.22-54.59%
14. Stoutland* (85/90/90): 45.75-54.95%
15. Kyurem (125/90/90): 46.92-55.29%
16. Eviolite Dusclops (40/130/130): 47.53-56.16%
17. Ferrothorn (74/131/116): 47.87-56.25%
18. Hippowdon (108/118/72): 48.69-57.26%
19. Mew/Jirachi/etc (100/100/100): 48.51-57.30%
20. Milotic (95/79/125): 49.35-58.25%
21. Throh (120/85/85): 49.77-58.56%
22. Stunfisk (109/81/99): 49.76-58.65%
23. Togekiss (85/95/115): 50.66-59.76%
24. Gyarados (95/79/100): 54.82-64.46%
25. Stoutland (85/90/90): 57.48-67.78%

*Factoring Intimidate. I also ran it without Intimidate for comparison, and because Intimidate is canceled by switching it isn't always in effect. Plus, Metagross lols@Intimidate.

-May have missed a few, like Scrafty. Terrible feeling I'm missing an important mixed wall though :/
-High Ranking doesn't mean high durability. Chansey and Umbreon are the only pokes in the top 10 with reliable recovery.
-Chansey, Umbreon, Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, Milotic, and Togekiss are the only walls listed with reliable recovery.
-Cresselia has Moonlight, Probopass and Dusclops have Pain Split, while Ferrothorn has Leech Seed for other recovery options.
-Nothing in the top ten has less than 100 Sp. Def.
-Base 100 group aka the control group used throughout the entire page, have various recovery. Recover, Wish, and Roost are available (Celebi, Jirachi, Mew).
-Everything else has Rest.
-Cresselia, Gyarados, and Mew/Celebi/Victini are the only things that resist Fighting. That's effectively 3/25 of the walls.
-Highest offensive stats go to Tyranitar (134 Atk) and Kyurem (130 Sp. Atk). Shuckle is the bottom of both barrels.
-The Base 100 group is the highest Speed (100). Next in line are Kyurem (95), Cresselia (85) and Gyarados/Milotic (81). Shuckle is the slowest (5).


____
EDIT: after some experience, Cobalion+Wish Latias=epic. Watch out for mixed TTar though.

All damage calculations were done in this fairly simple calculator:
Damage Calculator
If you want to use that, it requires Siverlight, which is a harmless plugin from Microsoft. Its a tad slow loading, but is the only good Gen 5 calc I am aware of. The page should provide a download for Siverlight if you don't have it.

[ProjectTitan313]

Yeah, Zephyr tempted me into adding Special and Mixed walls. Soon as I get me some Mountain Dew, this is gonna see a rename and revamp. My math teacher's probably cheering for me somewhere xD

Original post.
The rest is edited in as an addon to the originally posted topic. I hit the character limit bitches

These are the EV Spreads and Special/Physical damages taken for the Mixed Wall section. Attacker was kept a constant 394 Atk, STAB+Life Orb boosted attack with 100 Base Power, on each defense stat. These were used to determine the "overall damage taken" percentages by averaging the Min/Max damages of Special/Physical damage. Mostly, its a reference for me and will make little to sense for anyone else. Averaging method used was:
[(MinPhys+MinSpec)/2] to determine Min Overall percent.
[(MaxPhys+MaxSpec)/2] to determine Max Overall percent.

In the end looking like MinOverall-MaxOverall%.

Math Lesson

Mandibuzz 252/120/136 +Sp. Def 45.52-53.77% Special, 46. 93-55.42% Physical

Using Mandibuzz as my key/legend:
-Has an EV Spread of 252 HP, 120 Def, 136 Sp. Def, and a +Sp. Def nature like Calm.
-Took 45.52-53.77% from the aforementioned Special Attack.
-Took 46.93-55.42% from the aforementioned Physical Attack.
-Using my above formula for MinOverall%, [(MinPhys+MinSpec)/2], the MinOverall% is [(45.52+46.93)/2]=46.22%
-Using my above formula for MaxOverall%, [(MaxPhys+MaxSpec)/2], the MaxOverall% is [(53.77+55.42)/2]=54.59%
-Thus, she takes 46.22-54.59% as the Overall Average damage. This damage percentage is how everything will be ranked.

Aaand here's the raw info dump on percentages used for the Overall Average damage.

Registeel 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 38.19- 45.33% Special, 40.66-48.08% Physical

Cresselia 252/200/56 +Sp. Def 36.71-43.24% Special, 38.06-44.82% Physical

Dusclops 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 36.97-43.66% Special, 58.1-68.66% Physical

Lapras 252/200/56 +Sp. Def 43.32-51.08% Special, 48.49-56.90% Physical

Rhydon 252/8/248 +Sp. Def 43.48-50.97% Special, 48.07-56.76% Physical

Chansey 248/252/8 +Def 21.05-24.89% Special, 43.89-51.7% Physical

Tyranitar 252/176/80 +Def 35.89-42.33% Special, 41.68-49.01% Physical

Umbreon 252/240/16 +Sp. Def 42.64-50.25% Special, 44.42-52.03% Physical

Snorlax 252/252/4 +Def 40.84-48.28% Special, 41.79-49.24% Physical

Kyurem 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 46.26-54.41% Special, 47.58-56.17% Physical

Mew 252/160/96/ +Sp. Def 47.77-56.44% Special, 49.26-58.17% Physical

Shuckle 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 39.75-46.72% Special, 42.21-49.59% Physical

Probopass 252/200/56 +Sp. Def 44.44-52.16% Special, 45.68-54.01% Physical

Bastiodon: 252/24/232 +Sp Def 41.98-49.38% Special, 45.37-53.09% Physical

Ferrothorn: 252/88/168 +Sp. Def 46.31-54.55% Special, 49.43-57.95% Physical

Suicune: 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 43.07-50.50% Special, 44.8-52.97% Physical

Stunfisk : 252/192/64 +Sp. Def 47.63-56.16% Special, 51.9-61.14% Physical

Hippowdon: 252/4/252 +Sp. Def 49.29-57.86% Special, 48.10-56.67% Physical

Gyarados: 252/120/136 +Sp. Def 47.21-55.58% Special, 41.88-49.49% Physical (Intimidate), 62.44-73.35% Physical (normal)

Milotic: 252/252/4 +Def 48.98-57.87% Special, 49.75-58.63% Physical

Togekiss: 252/240/16 +Sp. Def 49.73-58.56% Special, 51.60-60.96% Physical

Stoutland: 252/40/216 +Sp. Def 49.73-58.56% Special, 43.58-51.34% Physical (Intimidate), 65.24-77.01% Physical (normal)

Throh: 252/160/96 +Sp. Def 48.87-57.66% Special, 50.68-59.46% Physical

[Zephyr]

I actually did read this the first time, I've just been away from the game too long to give criticism.

I'd love to help figure out effectiveness, although I lost the damage calculation formulas. I know X-Act had a 4th gen defense allocator. (Which EVs would work on what type of wall you're after for each Pokemon.) I'm not sure how he came up with it, though. In the long run, it looked like the best option was to use what we knew all along; Bulky Water types with recovery moves. Vaporeon being at the top of that list with Wish, Protect, and many other options.

Once we (Read: You) figure out what works best defensively, maybe there's something to be said for offense, and figuring out which Pokemon truly do the most work on a team. Unfortunately, I've been playing MTG more and more lately, meaning I have less involvement in the Pokemon metagame. Although I reached my plateau point in both.

...so I read Homestuck.

[ProjectTitan313]

I actually did read this the first time, I've just been away from the game too long to give criticism.

I'd love to help figure out effectiveness, although I lost the damage calculation formulas. I know X-Act had a 4th gen defense allocator. (Which EVs would work on what type of wall you're after for each Pokemon.) I'm not sure how he came up with it, though. In the long run, it looked like the best option was to use what we knew all along; Bulky Water types with recovery moves. Vaporeon being at the top of that list with Wish, Protect, and many other options.

Once we (Read: You) figure out what works best defensively, maybe there's something to be said for offense, and figuring out which Pokemon truly do the most work on a team. Unfortunately, I've been playing MTG more and more lately, meaning I have less involvement in the Pokemon metagame. Although I reached my plateau point in both.

...so I read Homestuck.

X-Act's article on effective defenses/overall harm and X-Act's Defense EV Applet. The first link basically explains how the applet works
The value the applet uses for the attack is about equal to a lv. 100 poke with 317 atk using a base 75 power move. Like... max attack Magmar using Thunderpunch, and also assumes maximum damage is always dealt (the max damage% in damage calcs). Me, I used a much more manly attack for the calc: 394 Atk, STAB+LO base 100 move. Machamp's Life Orb boosted DynamicPunch and Heatran's Life Orb boosted Heat Wave (in a singles battle; damage is different in doubles/triples).

Yeah, defensive stuff is harder and harder with the massive power jumps from gen 3 > gen 4 > gen 5. While monsters like Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Haxorus, Mienshao, and Salamence come along, bulky pokemon do not see nearly as much improvement. Even Blissey is 2HKO'd by special sweepers these days (Chandelure's +1 Fire Blast in Sun).

I could look at resistances, see what most walls are weak too, and which walls pair well (other than SkarmBliss and JelliThorn). Personally, I'm finding Mandibuzz to be an effective special wall, stall breaker, Toxic staller, and shuffler, and mixed wall is going OK. I'll find my buzzard's ideal complementary wall one day. ;)
Also, Wish Latias+Cobalion brings a HUGE slew of resistances, high Speed, and even some sweeping potential. About the only trouble that has seen is Houndoom (who also breaks JelliThorn and harasses SkarmBliss with Taunt) and MixedTTar (Crunch+Fire Blast).
Jellicent is also giving Vaporeon competition, being a spinblocker and walling a few things better (Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Volcarona), but Vaporeon still has everything we love it for plus Scald.

Got special walls added in, working on mixed walls, using X-Acts applet to get as much balance as possible. I got... 64 oz. of Pepsi and a few hours of Metallica combined with nothing to do, so it could be glorious results. Maybe xD

EDIT: OP getting huge. May have to turn post 2 into a continuation lol. I suppose its a good thing I double posted xD

[Zephyr]

Reading through this, I think you proved exactly what I said earlier. In some weird way, HP EVs are somewhat more important than defensive ones. The Suicune / Latias argument shows that better than anything else. Suicune takes hits better, as long as you don't take Latias' Recover into account.

From what I can see, mixed defense is actually a pretty bad choice most of the time. Rather than taking multiple hits, or forcing switches, you can only take two neutral, powerful hits. You can't switch in safely, or check anything really. Not to say I'm undermining your calcs in the least. They're a HUGE help for me in theorizing. Using dedicated walls is simply better than mixed. The next speed bump is typing, but that's mostly intuitive. (Eviolite Rhydon probably isn't the better choice over Regirock). Which brings up another point.

The walls listed are almost all in the RU / UU / NU tiers. The ones in OU dip down as far as 10th best, with Vaporeon in physical, and again in special (Ignoring T-Tar, for its general offensive role.) This says something about the metagame. Defensive measures are hardly as important. They play a role in forcing switches and changing momentum, but you need the sheer force of sweepers to win over your opponents. Utility Pokemon go higher up the list, with moves like Stealth Rock and Toxic causing the most damage in matches. Again, that's not to say this information is outclassed or unnecessary, but to say that we can really see where the metagame has changed and where it stands.

Gosh, this really makes me want to team build again. I almost feel like I could put together a decent team building guide for non-theme teams. (IE Sandstorm teams are always going to have a different configuration than a non-theme team.) I need to relax and not think too much though, because I'll end up hating the 'mons again. I can't process information the way you can. It depresses me =P

[ProjectTitan313]

Reading through this, I think you proved exactly what I said earlier. In some weird way, HP EVs are somewhat more important than defensive ones. The Suicune / Latias argument shows that better than anything else. Suicune takes hits better, as long as you don't take Latias' Recover into account.

From what I can see, mixed defense is actually a pretty bad choice most of the time. Rather than taking multiple hits, or forcing switches, you can only take two neutral, powerful hits. You can't switch in safely, or check anything really. Not to say I'm undermining your calcs in the least. They're a HUGE help for me in theorizing. Using dedicated walls is simply better than mixed. The next speed bump is typing, but that's mostly intuitive. (Eviolite Rhydon probably isn't the better choice over Regirock). Which brings up another point.

The walls listed are almost all in the RU / UU / NU tiers. The ones in OU dip down as far as 10th best, with Vaporeon in physical, and again in special (Ignoring T-Tar, for its general offensive role.) This says something about the metagame. Defensive measures are hardly as important. They play a role in forcing switches and changing momentum, but you need the sheer force of sweepers to win over your opponents. Utility Pokemon go higher up the list, with moves like Stealth Rock and Toxic causing the most damage in matches. Again, that's not to say this information is outclassed or unnecessary, but to say that we can really see where the metagame has changed and where it stands.

Gosh, this really makes me want to team build again. I almost feel like I could put together a decent team building guide for non-theme teams. (IE Sandstorm teams are always going to have a different configuration than a non-theme team.) I need to relax and not think too much though, because I'll end up hating the 'mons again. I can't process information the way you can. It depresses me =P

HP EVs are dominant because the HP Stat is used for both Physical and Special walls, so when mixed walling, HP sort of counts twice
I think everything in the Mixed section has at least 248 HP EVs, but that damn applet seems to favor Sp. Def if its "unbiased". I tried tweaking it to 45/55 but then it rapes Sp. Def. Stupid thing. I just rolled with the special bias (50/50) ><

And yup, mixed walls are generally inefficient as you have to split the EVs so hard, much like mixed attacking (while attackers have to invest Speed, walls invest HP). My Mandibuzz for example runs 405/282/300 defenses with 16 Speed EVs to outrun min Speed Gyarados/Milotic. She takes Special hits quite well (max Sp. Atk Modest Air Balloon/Leftovers/Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast fails to 2HKO factoring Leftovers and ignoring accuracy), but hard hitting Physical attackers (Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Scizor) can all 2HKO, but she does have enough to take on physically bulky walls and tanks like Hippowdon. However, it would almost always be better to run a strong physical wall+special wall like Latias+Cobalion, who have amazing defensive synergy and can focus on their respective defenses. I've seen plenty of Latias, but Cobalion is UU I believe, under 1.500% usage on PO.

Also, Ferrothorn is OU, and is on all 3 lists when I get done :3
Granted, Ferrpthorn's a bit low on the Special wall list (74/116).
Tyranitar, as powerful an attacker as it is, is actually used mostly as a Special wall/mixed tank to handle the OU Psychics (Reuniclus, Espeon, Alakazam, Lati@s) and special Dragons (Lati@s, Hydreigon). DD Ttar is a myth these days :o

But yeah, offense is taking the cake. I don't think I've EVER seen a stall team this gen. Bulky Sand teams are the closest I've seen (Landorus+Magnezone or Scizor+Rotom-W of course. Fucking VoltTurn).

Finishing the mixed section atm, as its like 3x the work of either physical/special. Ended up using post#2 as a continuation of my text wall xD

[Zephyr]

Most of it's common sense, but you'd assume mixed walls would be usable, and they really aren't. Dedicated walls, however, are very usable. It just comes down to type coverage at that point. My biggest question is how to use all of this information. My first thought would be to understand type resistance. Using Pokemon teams like Ferrothorn and Jellicent still fail, despite having nearly perfect coverage. Why? Ferro has Toxic, T-Wave, Stealth Rock, and Leech Seed. Jellicent has Recover, Scald, Toxic, and Substitute. The duo should be able to stall nearly any Pokemon, yet it can't.

I'm not sure how much of that makes sense, but I feel like there's something very viable we're missing. Type coverage in general. We might understand better if we take apart the aggro metagame as well. I mean, if BoltBeam is used, then having a Physically bulky water type mixed with a Specially bulky Dragon type still won't work.

[ProjectTitan313]

Most of it's common sense, but you'd assume mixed walls would be usable, and they really aren't. Dedicated walls, however, are very usable. It just comes down to type coverage at that point. My biggest question is how to use all of this information. My first thought would be to understand type resistance. Using Pokemon teams like Ferrothorn and Jellicent still fail, despite having nearly perfect coverage. Why? Ferro has Toxic, T-Wave, Stealth Rock, and Leech Seed. Jellicent has Recover, Scald, Toxic, and Substitute. The duo should be able to stall nearly any Pokemon, yet it can't.

I'm not sure how much of that makes sense, but I feel like there's something very viable we're missing. Type coverage in general. We might understand better if we take apart the aggro metagame as well. I mean, if BoltBeam is used, then having a Physically bulky water type mixed with a Specially bulky Dragon type still won't work.

I see, JelliThorn, despite the typing synergy, are still torn apart by certain offensive combinations, on something that type wise is covered. Hydreigon, for example, has its STABs walled by Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn can't stomach a Fire Blast, while Jellicent can't stomach Dark Pulse.
Likewise, with my lovable Cobalion+Latios combo, they resist everything bar... Flying?
However, Tyranitar can maul Latias, and Fire Blast can deal fatal damage to Cobalion (though, Cobalion obviously threatens a OHKO on TTar). Same with Hydreigon again: Draco Meteor/Dark Pulse murders Latias, while Cobalion is eaten by Fire Blast or Focus Miss. They're also screwed against Metagross, despite Cobalion seemingly walling it, Metagross is damn near as bulky and while eventually grind it down with Earthquake/Hammer Arm.
But I'd also wonder how two mixed walls could work. Cresselia and maybe a tough Fighting type (Throh?), one leaning towards Special and one Physical.

I think yes, the opposing poke's offensive coverage puts a lot of stress on walls. Infernape, Hydreigon, Houndoom, and Haxorus can rip through damn near everything that can't really KO back. And a lot of it is some things can get good coverage, and have room for a boosting move (Terrakion, Haxorus, Lucario, Mienshao), which lets them overpower walls that can't really run Iron Defense or Amnesia, recovery, support move, offensive move, etc.
There's a few offensive boosting moves like Fiery Dance or Charge Beam, but the only stat reducing are Snarl (terrible distribution as its an unreleased TM) and Struggle Bug (20 BP... yeah), which simply can't stand against Nasty Plot or Swords Dance. Most physical sweepers can be Burned, but Lum Berry and Guts, plus any physical Fire type, aren't phazed, while Special attackers are nigh unstoppable without Chansey... and even then, there's exceptions.
Though, I'm waiting like a giddy schoolgirl for Snarl Mandibuzz. So much troll waiting to happen.

And like you said with BoltBeam, there's almost nothing that really walls it (A few Rotom formes, Lanturn, Magnezone... end list) despite being plenty of 2 wall combos that resist the combo.

Also, almost got mixed walls done, just gotta organize from lowest damage taken to highest, I got all the averages done. Should be up in a bit :3

[Zephyr]

The biggest anomaly I can't really get over is the fact that single types tend to wall better than dual typings. You'd think Ferrothorn with two types would have a larger list of resistances, but really, the larger list of weaknesses plays a huge factor. Vaporeon, despite electricity and grass weaknesses, is harder to KO than Rhyperior, who has massively superior defensive stats, and Solid Rock. I think there's a lot to be said towards the rock paper scissors of typing. We know Fire, Ground, Electric, and Ice are used the most. So defensively, that should cross out just about every Pokemon... yet most Water types can overcome their electric resistance with all of the Ground immunity switch-shenanigans.

On the other hand, there's a lot to be said towards the defensive capabilities of Lati@s. Despite having a Dragon, Dark, Ghost, Ice, Bug weaknesses, the Pokemon that use the moves tend to be slower, and weak to either the STABs or the Hidden Power Fire. Coverage is huge, and part of the reason I stopped looking at the data to begin with. Or rather, the fact that it overwhelmed me. Seeing your information helps me piece other things together without having to recalculate everything you wrote up in my head. I can SEE that Rhydon is superior to Cresselia on paper, but I can think through the rest, instead of doing it ALL in my head. Does that make sense?

PS: With all of my chatter, it's probably best if this thread is used as a first draft, so to speak. We can move it later as a guide, and leave my disclaimers mentioned. Maybe with further theories and stuff. That spoiler button sure is awesome.

[ProjectTitan313]

The biggest anomaly I can't really get over is the fact that single types tend to wall better than dual typings. You'd think Ferrothorn with two types would have a larger list of resistances, but really, the larger list of weaknesses plays a huge factor. Vaporeon, despite electricity and grass weaknesses, is harder to KO than Rhyperior, who has massively superior defensive stats, and Solid Rock. I think there's a lot to be said towards the rock paper scissors of typing. We know Fire, Ground, Electric, and Ice are used the most. So defensively, that should cross out just about every Pokemon... yet most Water types can overcome their electric resistance with all of the Ground immunity switch-shenanigans.

On the other hand, there's a lot to be said towards the defensive capabilities of Lati@s. Despite having a Dragon, Dark, Ghost, Ice, Bug weaknesses, the Pokemon that use the moves tend to be slower, and weak to either the STABs or the Hidden Power Fire. Coverage is huge, and part of the reason I stopped looking at the data to begin with. Or rather, the fact that it overwhelmed me. Seeing your information helps me piece other things together without having to recalculate everything you wrote up in my head. I can SEE that Rhydon is superior to Cresselia on paper, but I can think through the rest, instead of doing it ALL in my head. Does that make sense?

PS: With all of my chatter, it's probably best if this thread is used as a first draft, so to speak. We can move it later as a guide, and leave my disclaimers mentioned. Maybe with further theories and stuff. That spoiler button sure is awesome.

Yeah, the 4x weaknesses really crush stuff. Rhyperior/Rhydon, Ferrothorn, stuff like that can be swept aside like nothing if it packs the right moves. Vaporeon works nice since, ever since Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, and all them 4x Fire weaknesses crop up, most things pack HP Fire and Grass is almost non-existant even with the popularity of Sand and Rain. Electric, are generally only seen in Rain and some Sand (Magnezone, Zapdos, and Rotom-W), so Vaporeon or Milotic can easily cover its weaknesses with a multitude of Dragons, or Ferrothorn. Most Grass Types are frail (Sawsbuck, Shifrty, Lilligant, Victreebel) and those that aren't are slaughtered by all the Fire types and coverage moves anyway, bar Ludicolo. The only OU Grass types are Ferrothorn, Virizion, and Celebi iirc, who simply can't handle Fire types, which are increasingly common with Infernape, Volcarona, Heatran, Chandelure, and various HP Fire users like Lati@s, Starmie, and Celebi, plus stuff like Dragonite, Hydreigon, and Zoroark that use Fire for coverage.

I think a lot of it isn't necessarily statistical bulk, or even resistances, but weaknesses. Vaporeon/Milotic have two fairly rare weaknesses, with useful Fire/Steel/Water/Ice resists. Same for Rotom-W, who is a bitch to KO because it cares nothing of Grass Knot (20 BP) and a medium speed Volt Switch, plus the sh*tload of things that wall Grass it can switch out too. Likewise, Cobalion has a Poison immunity, 4x Bug, Rock, and Dark resist (Justified ftw), and resists to Grass, Dragon, Ice, Steel, Normal, Ghost. But, the weaknesses to Fire/Ground/Fighting are all coverage/STAB moves seen on nearly any sweeper, and no recovery bar Rest/Leftovers means it'll go down eventually. Things you'd expect it to laugh at (DD Dragonite, Haxorus, Tyranitar) can all easily 2HKO with common coverage moves (EQ on all three, Fire Blast, Fire Punch) while it can only threaten a Taunt, Toxic, or Thunder Wave (or OHKO on TTar).

Yeah I know what you mean lol. There's ~60 different walls listed, so seeing the ranking helps you use your general knowledge of what has recovery or decent resists/weaknesses to help piece stuff together like which walls are most useful, or possibly pair well. Like Eviolite Rhydon is considerably tougher than Skarmory stat wise, but Skarmory is a very common wall due to superior typing, support options, and recovery.

And yup, Lati@s are very useful defensively. I run one on my Sun team (Latios), and it goes well with Volcarona and Landorus, the three of which also murder every wall I've seen so far (Jellicent is setup fodder for Lum Berry+Sun Volcarona. But mostly, I have Lilligant). Tyranitar walls Latios, but Landorus/Lilligant can just flat out murder it, Ninetales can burn it, my Starmie doesn't run a Water move so is amusingly walled by it, and Volcarona can do some serious pain.

Ah that brings up another point: Weather boosted sweepers. While weather can defensively boost some stuff (Steel in Rain, Rocks in Sand, Fire/Ground in Sun), also effectively doubles the firepower of some already powerful shit (Dragonite, Darmanitan, Landorus) to give even moar power to the powerhouses. I mean, my Volcarona uses WATER TYPES for setup bait nearly as often as Ferrothorn/Scizor/Forretress. And Heatran... never sees HP Ground coming: which leads right back to your point of Ice/Electric/Ground/Fire moves. Three or four pokes can effectively smash just about any wall, but can three or four walls counter just about any sweeper? I think Game Freak just hates defensive/bulky people like me
Something like Darmanitan's Zen Mode would have been an EPIC alternate form. But no, they made it into a broken ability instead. 105/105/105 defenses+140 Sp. atk would have been a god.

I see no spoiler button lol.
Also, mixed wall section has been finished. So much math today :3